Tom Whitmore – MUFON board member and MJ 12 researcher

By | September 15, 2022

Terry and Tom are back with another fascinating guest – UFO and MJ-12 researcher Tom Whitmore from the San Antonio area. He is a board member and a current investigator for MUFON – a mutual UFO network. Tom Whitmore went to school at Portland State University and majored in business and finance and is a financial analyst. Tom has had a long-term interest in UFOs starting in the 1960s and in addition to being a MUFON board member, he has a special interest in the MJ-12 affair.

Tom Whitmore has a blog () and writes research papers on things that were considered “secret” or are “top secret”.

***About Tom Whitmore***

Tom has been a MUFON member since 1990 and has served as a MUFON State Section Director for Texas. He has served on the MUFON Board of Directors since 1995. Tom holds the Chartered Financial Analyst certification from the CFA Institute. Tom is employed as a financial analyst with a local corporation. Formerly CEO of a $220mm financial institution for seven years.

A few of Tom’s interests include: crash retrievals, and military/intelligence involvement. Tom is an avid reader of history and current events. He spends his spare time playing guitar and he is a passionate music lover. Other activities include hiking, biking, swimming, running and camping. Tom lives with his wife Marilyn and their daughter, Julia, who will attend Texas State University in San Marcos.

***About The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast ***

The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast is the ”go-to” place for everything metaphysical. We feature guests such as researchers, doctors, authors, scientists, and practitioners. Each podcast offers high-quality research about metaphysical topics. We will be revealing secrets and unveiling mysterious data in the metaphysical field.

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The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast | Tom Whitmore | UFO Researcher | MJ-12 Researcher | MUFON | Aliens | Roswell | Paranormal | Extraterrestrial

Good morning folks This is terry and tom back with another Fascinating guest with the metaphysical Mysteries Today we have with us An mj12 for those of you who know what Ufo mj 12 majestic 12 stands for expert I would consider him an expert Is tom whitmore and tom is out of the San antonio area Uh tom is a board member former board Member kill still a investigator with Mufon And uh mutual ufo network type thing and Uh we'll talk about that a little bit um Also i went to school at portland state University and majored in business and Finance became a financial analyst Uh has a blog he does research papers on All these things that people think were Secret top secret um back in the day and This stuff started all the way back You know the harry truman times and so Um Tom hey welcome Thank you terry thank you for having me I'm delighted to be here today Fantastic well is there anything else in Your background you'd like to share with The folks I've been uh interested in ufos since i Was about age 12. i was at a friend's House and i i saw My friend's dad had a couple of books on

The bookshelf by donald kehoe And i started reading those i read those And You know follow the ufos were in the News a lot back then that was back when We actually had newspapers And we had three tv networks and Occasionally You'd see something on the tv about ufos But the the ufo stories were quite Pretty frequent in the newspapers Uh then in the 70s things got quiet i Started wondering what was happening but I was Into other things um I've always read a lot of history Especially european history and i became Interested in The soviet union which led to an Interest in espionage and intelligence So i really started picking up on some Tradecraft what what an uh espionage They call tradecraft Uh principles so In the 1980s even though i wasn't Involved in the ufo field at that time In the in the late 80s i saw a program Called ufo cover up live And in that program they were making Claims about how there was a Top secret government program Uh they knew about uh they knew about Extraterrestrials they even had an Extraterrestrial as a guest at the

United states government And then in the in the late 80s when the Mj 12 documents came out Uh when i my first impression was They might have something to do with Espionage with intelligence work so that That's where my interest in history And ufos converged And i've i've been I've been Interested generally in ufos All this time but my particular area of Interest is mj-12 and the history of the Mj-12 affair Got it yeah and espionage was a good way To get into it i i just had lunch with Dr edwin mays Who was the supervisor of the stargate Program with they were doing the remote Viewing between america and russia and Other countries as well speaking of Espionage i just brought that to mind And i think a lot of this kind of Intertwines uh but the mj12 program i Talked a little bit about it coming into Effect and i'll let you give the history Of it um why it was created and you know Some of the players with the mj 12 and And so forth so people get a little Background when we talk about that Okay Sure So I started in president truman's

Administration correct Okay you want me to go through the yeah Yeah so everybody understands where mj12 Kind of came from Okay well what happened was uh in the Late 70s uh a ufo researcher by the name Of william moore And a well-known ufo or surgery by the Name of stan friedman Came across the so-called roswell Incident And they interviewed a number of Witnesses well Bill moore came out with a book a little Book called the roswell incident With charles burles And that may have kicked off A series of counter measures from the Air force And from uh the defense intelligence Agency maybe even the cia because If the roswell incident really happened If it was really a recovery Of a of a craft and if there were bodies And all that Then uh Some people were getting too close to The truth and it was starting to get Uh To get legs in the media So bill moore was really he was just Intensely developing contacts He had all kinds of contacts in the ufo Field and he was developing contacts in

The military and intelligence agencies And Parallel to that there were some Activities going on on kirtland air Force base With richard doty and richard doty was Working with afosi On kirtland air force base and richard Doty uh was associated with two Documents that mentioned mj12 Uh A very well-known ufo researcher by the Name of linda howe Uh had an appointment with linda doty on I'm sorry richard dodie on kirtland air Force base And she was shown a document that i i Refer to it as the carter briefing Document And it made a number of claims but Within that document Mj12 was mentioned Also as part of the paul benowitz affair Bill moore was requested probably by Richard doty to pass on in a a An altered telex which which i now call The aquarius telex He was asked to pass that on to Paul benowitz and in that telex it also Mentioned mj12 now these are in the Early 1980s Then uh not long after that During that period Uh bill moore's research associate by

The name of jamie chanderay Received a mailing i think it was put in His door But the mailing was it was postmarked Albuquerque new mexico and within that Was a roll of film 35 million millimeter film which they Developed and lo and behold we had the First set of what are now known as the Mj12 documents Okay and in that set they consisted of What we now refer to as the eisenhower Briefing document and the truman forest All memo And what the eisenhower briefing Document described was that there was a Recovery of a ufo in roswell new mexico And 19 or near Roswell new mexico in 1947 And the bodies were recovered and Obviously this was a big deal Uh and so a very uh secret committee at Very high level Scientists and military people and Government people was formed to study And probably manage The information concerning This whole this whole situation So that that's become known as the Eisenhower briefing document also there Was another document with that known as The truman forest all memo in which President crewman allegedly authorized Secretary of defense forestall to create

The mj-12 committee and to go from there Right now My understanding is that um The eisenhower he when he became President-elect is when that was created Uh he was briefed at that point uh Obviously he'd been a four-star general And But just because you are i think people Need to understand what Compartmentalization is all about as it Relates to keeping secrets And uh so you know eyes only or need to Know concepts uh so nobody knows the Total truth even though they may be Working on a package for part of it uh But i think didn't they use quite a bit Of compartmentalization in this Particular case as far as the existence Of the mj-12 group Well If the mj-12 group existed yes obviously There would have been extreme secrecy And extreme compartmentalization Now that there there are two sides to This Uh one one is the the documents Themselves And Uh many of these documents have not held Up under scrutiny in other words there Are most likely forgeries or Fabrications On the other side you have

Uh You know did roswell Occur in such a way that you had an Extraterrestrial craft Recovered with bodies now either that Happened or it didn't If it didn't happen then there probably Has not been or something like it If there haven't been any recoveries of Ufos there probably hasn't been an mj-12 If if there have been recoveries of ufos Then there it wouldn't Seem unlikely at all that something like Mj-12 would have been formed now it's Possible that a secret committee was Formed and it wasn't called mj12 it's Also possible that there could have been An mj-12 and it didn't have anything to Do with flying saucer recovery so these Are all unanswered questions that Researchers like i have Right I know linda howe who's on television Quite a lot related to these topics has Done her Due diligence and research and continues That process to this day uh interviewing People in More classified positions and so forth When when they and they come out you Know even all the way to antarctica you Know talking about that lately that's Been hot topic of course we're talking 1947 now we're

20 22. That's a long time to keep a secret now Let me ask you this is more of a Conceptual question In your opinion Why would it be that it would be so Necessary to keep that secret and away From The american public or the world public For that matter uh i know what my Thoughts are my research but What's your Take on that why would they would do That There are several reasons Terry um First first There there's a in my Mind There's a huge difference between Thinking about extraterrestrial Visitation in the abstract Between thinking of it that way and Actually really truly knowing that it's That it's real and that it can't be Denied And i think that if it was presented to The public in such a way that people Could not deny it that they had to Accept it i think That the people in the know felt that That was simply too big of a risk You know that it could be too disruptive To society now

If it is true and if the proof really is There It it has never been officially Confirmed so we don't really know what The reaction of the public would be Because we haven't been through that but I think that that uh that's one of the Considerations that they may have had You know if if they were dealing with This reality The other side of it is in 1947 and in The early 50s The authorities were scared to death That stalin was going to overrun western Europe And they were very very busy uh creating This defense structure that we now know As nato that still exists Today and they were during that period Of time they were going through the Berlin blockade in the berlin airlift And The the national security state Which was being formed after the passage Of the national security act in 1947 The national security state was hastily Being constructed And the cia had been created and there Was all of this concern even paranoia About the Intentions and capabilities of the Soviets So i think they saw Their mission

In life in for the public to defend the United states against the soviet threat And that was the first priority and i Think that the If it did happen Then the ufo problem was shut it aside And it was kept in extreme secrecy Yeah i mean the Geopolitical religious connotation Of disrupting society as we know it Because thinking back To 1947 even in the 50s The way life was You know happy days kind of stuff um Very religious type scenario going on And most people attended church and so Forth had certain belief systems And i think introduction of Ufo concepts Uh would have caused What they were worried about i think a Bit of a chaos situation where the Government wouldn't be able to control People's panic in fact Uh today though With all the stuff that is out there on The internet with without stuff on History channel and Discovery gen whatever I think people are Correct me if i'm wrong but i think People will be a much much Less chaos maybe almost in a lot of Cases

Ho hom we knew that you know and that's Where the concept of slowly leaking Things out through the media through Movies and televisions and and so forth And even to the point where supposedly The Movie um close encounters of the third Kind you know Producers were Given Data and they basically recreated that On the screen Then some people think it's a large Scale Almost conspiracy if you would but i'm Not quite a conspiracy theorist so Um a way to Inoculize the stress uh for the entire General public that they're kind of Conceptually used to that i don't know That's what's that's a little bit of a Thought that i've seen out there and That makes some sense Yeah i mean there's It's a lot different now because we've Gone through 70 years of thinking about Ufos Taking ufo reports A lot of programs about Extraterrestrials you know the x-files Close encounters of the third kind etc Etc So there has been a lot of conditioning Of the public to

At least be familiarized Uh With the idea now But i think realistically we have to Take into consideration that Rightly or wrongly there There's a lot of mistrust of the Government now And even if they did come out and flat Inform the public that this is true i'm Not sure that everyone would believe Them Right and uh you have to consider that And i don't want to get into politics But you just take uh like vaccines for Uh covet A lot of people won't accept it you know They don't trust it you know rightly or Wrongly i'm not taking a side one with The uh one way or the other but what i'm Talking about are public perceptions and Public attitudes i think and Yes i agree with you 100 there because You know covet is a great Example you use there because it's not The medicine they're worried about it's The trust of the government which Over the decades especially after Watergate and on down the line you know The trust is just nose-dived to where People don't believe what's coming out It like they used to So to your point yes I believe there would be a significant

Amount of Public Population that would say hey I don't believe it Until they actually see an alien walk up On their doorstep and knock on the door I don't think some people would ever Believe it So tommy you got anything on that You know i was just thinking about this Whole thing of the secrecy and such but Terry i mean we've been in law Enforcement for over 30 years How many times a week has things that we Weren't allowed to share Per se but you know just to minimize the Impact of the uncomfortableness to the General public Yeah absolutely you sign agreements i Mean my agreements are still in place There's things i can't talk about And and won't and you know the thing is Yeah you do get to know all the dirty Little secrets what's under the carpet So to speak uh and you can't talk about It because you would jeopardize your Liberty and potentially your pension and Your family and so forth so i totally Get totally understand that concept so How long can you keep a If you want to call it a cover-up or Just a cloak of secrecy on something Depends on agreements that are signed And the integrity of the people who sign

Them and whether they Continue to hold out um until their Deathbed perhaps and we've had a number Of deathbed confessions if you will uh Of these folks in the ufo community and A lot of them that were the originators Are either dead or getting really long In the tooth would that would that be Correct tom Yeah but we haven't Considering the possibility that this is Real And considering the extent Of people that have been involved in This in one way or another i don't think We've had nearly enough death death bed Confessions Okay and if this is real and if the Secrecy is being enforced i mean it Could be it could be enforced with real Live threats in other words people are Scared to death to tell the truth about Their involvement in it you know if they If that's the case so Um It's interesting to look at the problem Uh in terms of of religions and i'm not Uh i don't mean to judge or criticize Any particular religion but for example Uh the the evangelical christians they Have very firm beliefs And attitudes about how the world is Going to turn out And uh you know i'm not sure that they

That they would be able to accept Uh this kind this kind of reality if it Was presented to them Now i'm talking hypothetically Let's look at the muslims i really don't Know know how they would react Uh i know that many of the muslims in The middle east Have been conditioned to mistrust The us because of soviet Uh uh soviet and russian disinformation Rumors that have been planted lies that Have been told uh about the us so i'm Not sure that the moslems would How they would react to such news In the in the judaism community you know You have You have reformed jews that are that are Pretty modernistic in their attitudes But you also have Very conservative even uh really really Strict Uh lee conservative uh jews And they go they go by the bible very Very closely so i don't you know i don't Know if they could accept this so it's Really in terms of public exception uh Acceptance and perception it's really a Pretty complex situation worldwide And i believe there's think tanks that Spend a lot of time debating this issue That we're talking about in that respect And probably advised this group if it Exists

Which it appears it does um Most of them are dead now i think all of Them are dead now 12 originals are dead But i guess The question i would have is there an Extension a replacement if you will of These 12 well as they leave government And or retire and or die Do you believe in a distant it doesn't Have to be definitive but you believe That there's a replacement of that or It's morphed into some other Uh form of uh government oversight Yeah i mean if it existed originally as As mj 12 And you had 12 people on their Uh you know people die and they're Probably replaced now an interesting Little factoid about all this and the Mj12 affair the history of it Is that The the documents were received about Two months after the last person on the Mj-12 list died Okay and that's that that to me is very Interesting Okay And the mj-12 group uh But you know again i'm probably getting Tedious saying this but if it existed It's the name has probably changed Several times over the years and Uh from Uh some of the information that i've

Reviewed I could probably come up with 10 12 Different names that i may have had you Know since Since the 1940s Well you know in the judicial system we Have a level of proof in the civil court A presumption of the evidence in other Words 51 percent in your mind are better That's a presumption of the evidence and Then in the criminal court it's beyond a Reasonable doubt so above 90 percent So based on the documents that you have Researched seen get copies of as the Case may be Uh what do you think we're at where do You think we're at on the truth factor Here I think that uh there's a distinct Possibility Uh that that it's true But it all depends on whether one or More craft have been recovered or Whether some kind of direct Communication is Has occurred between the authorities and Between these This group or groups uh that that Apparently are visiting us I i think if there hasn't ever been a Saucer recovery if there hasn't been any Direct communication and collaboration Then then probably mj 12 Is is false okay

But if there has been that then Something like that has occurred now It's not necessarily Uh mandatory that you form a strict Committee to address this i know And seeing how the government works to a Certain extent i'm not from government Or military but They form committees they form ad-hoc Committees they study this they study That they discuss this they debate that And can the committees change they morph You have people from different Departments and different divisions Coming into committees and leaving and You know priorities change over time so It's it's possible That uh this the reality has been Addressed but but not necessarily as an Mj12 committee per se Right let me ask you this this is a more Specific question i guess the uh My understanding Of what's been reported is that President eisenhower had a meeting with An extraterrestrial in the white house Now one of his his granddaughter great Granddaughter i don't remember which Uh came out publicly and said that's True um the family knows that and there Was a Uh an alien if you want to call them That that did have that meeting and There was some agreement

Uh I guess put in place at that time Uh what's your thoughts on that or have You seen any documentation related to That Well there there have been rumors and Stories that uh um There are at least two There's there has been a rumor in a Story that uh eisenhower when he was in California Uh he disappeared for a day or two and Met you know met the Spaceman Now the official explanation was that he Had a cracked tooth and had to go to the Dentist And i believe that the dentist has Testified that that was the case the Other story rumor that has been around For years is that The aliens landed at Um At holloman air force base In the night uh i think in the 1960s and The air force officers and dwarf Eisenhower met with them uh perhaps Briefly kind of like on the runway kind Of a thing Uh and this is these are associated that With these rumors that there are Treaties with the aliens and all of this Kind of thing and the problem is the They're fascinating stories

They're fascinating rumors but we don't Have any official confirmation of it There there are no official documents That have been released you know through The freedom of information act Uh confirming mj 12 or these alien Relationships or any of that so It's all on the rumor and the you know Kind of like the campfire story level And they're they're intriguing i love Him as much as everybody else does but We don't i'm not willing i'm trying to Be an objective researcher an objective Person in the subject and until we have Some Something amounting to firm confirmation You know i just can't can't go any Further than that Sure Tommy you have something You know it's an interesting concept i Take it from a very humanistic Perspective rather than the science Perspective with this one Ever since i was young i always felt There was other Life out there Because i don't have the egotistical Place that says i'm the only thing in The game when you look at the size of The universe or universes however you Want to label that Does it even conceptually make any sense That this is only one planet that can

Sustain a life of some flavor Yeah i mean You Just look i mean common sense look at The universe Where our solar system is just an you Know our star is just an average sized Star And we have eight nine planets Revolving around it one of which is Teeming with life Our earth Then you look at out and they they've Said there are either more stars or more Galaxies than there are grains of sand On the beaches You know so you know common sense would Tell you that that their the universe is Most likely teeming with life But our problem is because of our level Of scientific knowledge at this time we Don't understand how how they could get Here But if they're getting here they're Getting here and you know let's face the Facts okay And what we consider life We're kind of a water-based planet Obviously and uh what we consider life May not be at all what life is someplace Else you know they had your casey uh you Know Ara that kind of stuff you look at some Of the research there and you know other

Places Beyond that but Talk about experiences or as they call Sojourns Into neptune or you're in a vibratory Life so you're not in a physical 3d life You may be in a different dimensional Life but you're still the soul Is experiencing that Particular environment for a time And so I think our concept of life Is very limited based on our experience Here Uh whether it's a Giant hologram which some of the Physicists believe Or if it's Just a total reality which You know that's a whole nother whole Other topic for some day but uh Honestly I agree with what tommy said that you Know i think it would be most arrogant To believe with we are the only thing Out there and from the massive amount of Reports and even project blue book You know they couldn't wipe all those Out there's hundreds of them that they Still couldn't actually say write it off To some weather balloon or whatever you Want to call it Um So i think there's volumes of data there

And From an investigator point of view if i Was literally going to take the time to Go through every single thing from 1947 To current and he could go to russia Before 47 or whatever um And even even beyond 47 go way back into Ancient times where it's even in in uh You know paintings and so forth where They show obviously what would we Consider an alien craft There seems to be At a minimum the preponderance of Evidence In my mind as an investigator Beyond a reasonable doubt In some cases probably it's probably Right there could i prove it to a jury Is how i always kind of get to that Point i think with enough Physical artifacts Uh witness statements That's what we look for In a criminal justice setting Can you get that and are they believable You know if i could introduce polygraphs You know we can't now but if we could Could we Probably convince a jury that certain Things occur i think we're probably at That point now where we could probably Do it if a proper full-blown Investigation was put together uh by Properly qualified investigators i think

That's possible and That's a concept and that's where i want To get to kind of jump into your move on Uh experiences you're on the board for Mufon or were and then you know still Doing and still Still on the board um so Um Let's talk about mufon for a minute tell People what that means and you know what Your role is there and if somebody has Got something to report how would they Do it and Maybe they want to be an investigator What does that take how it's a screening Process Mufon began in the late 60s and early 70s when The air force was getting out of the Public ufo business And the air force had They had hired The university of colorado through Edward condon To Do a study and and file a report And then The air force shut down project blue Book and Move the files you know to to archive They eventually became public At that time a person by the name of Walt andrus who at the time was with Apro

An investigators group called aerial Phenomena research organization He teamed up with john shiesler and a Couple of other people and they started What began as the midwest Ufo network and it was later called the Uf mutual ufo network And they started developing a network of Of what we call field Investigators And they had they had field Investigators in in most every state And they had state directors and They published they started publishing A newsletter called skylook which later Became the mufon ufo journal And then they were putting on annual Symposiums so that That basic model is still in in effect Today mufon Manages a network of field investigators And state directors It publishes a monthly Mufon ufo journal And we put on an annual symposium and at The symposium other researchers and Presenters are invited to come and Present what they know And that's that's entered into a Permanent record in the uh sympodium Symposium proceedings So that that's basically what mufon is About and uh we do Uh mufon does charge for membership uh

To get uh uh an annual or a monthly Mufon journal uh there is some cost of That it's about almost six dollars a Month And you can get as Involved as you want to be If you want to become a field Investigator you can Take the online course or purchase the Mufon field investigators manual and we Have an exam and the person can pass the Exam and then Receive their field investigators card And then go to work In their state in their local area you Have we have State section directors that that Correspond to a city and then we have State directors that corp respond to a State so a new person Getting into ufo Investigations would uh team up with Another investigator or or a state Section director or a state director and Then go out and start following up on on Cases Now for the general public Mufon has a web page And if you want to report a ufo you can Go on there and report a ufo And you can be referred you know to your Your relevant geographic area And then in in theory in principle and For the most part

Uh that that case will be followed up And investigated Now mufon uh has been around for 50 Years so we have a lot of cases on file We have over 100 000 cases in our Archive so You know we're sitting on a very uh very Large wealth of information That's not to say that every case in There is a ufo Uh but uh That's a high enough volume of Information that you know it does need To be analyzed And and the the wheat needs to be sorted From the chaff so to speak You know i was just that is mufon's Position in the world Just down at Rice university And they had a conference because a lot Of the ufo researchers That have had their stuff for 30 40 Years They're getting like i said a little Longer in the tooth and they know They're not going to be around forever And Rice university and religious studies Department particularly Agreed to archive Properly All of these documents so once one Person did it some of these leading

Experts Others then subsequently Uh have done it as well and so the Uh conference was basically from Presenters who Delivered over To Rice university their Documents you know one one i remember They said we had 76 boxes of Documentation on their research because You can imagine if you put 40 years into Researching And you know you're in your 80s and You're not going to be around here much Longer you don't want it just to go into A barn and your great nephew burns it up Or something because he needs fire but You know um you want it to go someplace It can be useful And so the archivists and it's called Archives of the impossible was the name Of the conference and so the archivist There at rice um have agreed to do that Process and You know that's already started and so They're doing a fantastic job with that But that's going to be available as i Understand it for the public it's going To take some time to get that all done It's not going to be something that's Just in a flash because you know trying To electronically scan everything and You know get it properly microfilm or

Whatever you're going to do and get it Organized where it's searchable It's going to be really challenging uh No question about it but I think that's going to be a great Repository there's other places other Universities showed up there's Representatives i think um Southwest georgia university if Somewhere in georgia they also had a Similar type archive and and there were Several others that had shown up Somebody from syracuse showed up too but Anyway the point is they were really Taking on a a [Music] Large burden uh and i don't know if it's A burden or a benefit but probably a Benefit to mankind uh to take that on And house it because it's going to take A lot of space and space at a university As you know is at a premium So and i'm i'm sorry i missed that Conference i wish i'd known about it i Certainly would have attended uh you Know i'm only three three hours away From houston Uh i did i was i did attend a Presentation by jeffrey crypal Uh that he gave at at trinity university It was it was a remote Presentation but i am aware of him and I've been meaning to make contact with Him

Uh i'm i'm very very Interested in the whole archive issue There you know it's good i I'm a little concerned that they're Doing it under a religious studies Department but I'm i'm thrilled that they're really Professionally seriously putting Together this archive and and like you Mentioned there are some others around Uh there are some other researchers that Are still alive that have a huge amount Of information they've I'm thinking of linda howe for example Um she's been doing this for 40 50 years And and she must have just a huge amount Of information Uh i'm concerned that that uh will be Properly preserved Uh and there there are others so yeah i Hear you Tomorrow You had over a hundred thousand you know Cases and such Where a lot of that information has been Tried to be gleaned from government Agencies have you ever had a government Agency come to your folks and say let's See what you have That the closest that that occurred was With this whole sequence of uh this Uh what became the asap program Uh I don't ask me to repeat the acronym i

Have trouble remembering all that on the Spot but What happened was Senator reid and a couple of other Senators decided that they wanted to Fund a research study And senator reid knew robert bigelow They're both from nevada And robert bigelow is is a wealthy Businessman who had Lots of capability He was he was a skinwalker ranch owner For extended period of time for people Who might watch that on television Yeah so Uh reed and them funded this program Which became known as osap And even though they did put it out for Bid Uh bigelow's group the bigelow aerospace Uh was the only one that bid on the Contract so they they got the contract And they Uh they they were off to the races one Of the Elements of that program was Bigelow came to mufon and and uh Set up an agreement Where mufon would cooperate With with mr bigelow And uh bigelow had access to mufon cases As they were coming in now The idea Was that and the reason why mufon

Cooperated and i know this because i was On the board at the time The reason why mufon got into this was It it really gave us our first Opportunity to have a rapid deployment Force In other words A no holds barred in terms of expenses Ability to Immediately go to to a hot case And that this did happen in several Several instances so Uh there was that That interaction Between uh bigelow and mufon now at the Time At the time that this occurred As far as i know the buffon board Members were not told the source of the Money That was being used in this program okay And it was it was quite a bit of money Okay And What happened was Uh you know this program was carried out And It ended uh for mufon and bigelow it Ended within one year Okay so Okay fine This is you know around what 2010 Somewhere around there Here it is in 2017 an article comes out

In the new york times That started this whole This whole uh Recent sequence of events And when i read that article then i put Two and two together and i realized that It was government money that was funding This Okay so that's to answer your question That's As far as i know mufon's involvement With any government program or Government request for information but i Don't think That it that it occurred under Straightforward circumstances In terms of funding or the origin of the Of the program Interest seems like it'd be a good Resource for them to follow up on if They want to find out what's going on You'd think so yes but it's Mufon it's it's not like we're Transparent but it's not like Either that we wouldn't share Information if we were properly Approached and And you know there was It was above board okay Um and we get accused of you know being Government agents and working in secret With the government and all that and I've been on i've been on the board for 25 30 years and i have no evidence of

That Yeah you know one people what people Don't realize is the government does Contract out with private entities for These kinds of investigations because It's not subject to foia And that's an easy way to keep it secret And Trusted Corporations that Have a shared interest there's may be More research and financial But the government's looking for data And does not necessarily want to share It so that's one of the ways you Do that uh is just fun somebody and Bigelow doesn't have to show anybody Anything That's right and And he doesn't But um Here's the deal there there are ufo Researchers like john greenwald John greenwald's an expert at filing Foia requests and he's been doing it Since he was 15 years old and he's filed I think he's collected over a million Documents and just recently He's gotten some more information You know about this report that came out Last june And another gentleman who does the ufo Trail like uh uh Jack brewer i think is his name

He he got some more information out of The government from from the awesome Program so You know There are researchers and investigators That keep they keep chipping away you Know through foia at the government now If something's still classified the Government's gonna not gonna release it And it's really up to them they may Decide okay we can declassify this and We can release it so but you have to go To the government and ask and and even Demand that they release this Information and they they either don't Release any or they release some You know the rest of it's redacted and That's how it all works Of course That's the nature of the game and uh We're quite familiar with that and My question is this um we talk about These encounters with ufos obviously i'm Gonna ask you in your experience what The best ufo case was i won't ask you That to start with right now but keep it In back your mind uh the best most Convincing one you've ever heard or Participated in but in the meantime we Call these encounters uh per the movie You know close to 10 or third kind but There's first kind second kind third Kind forthcoming can you kind of Enlighten us on the classification of

What we would consider interactions so The public wouldn't know anybody Listening to this Well the close encounter Uh criteria where They were developed by uh dr j allen Hydec And He's a very famous person ufo In ufo history and he was He was a consultant to the air force but It's It's basically uh A stepped up level of how close you are To the ufo And uh The The closet the the first kind and the Second kind Are are less than the third kind and the Third kind is like you're within 500 Feet of a ufo 500 feet is pretty darn close okay and That is a close close encounter then you Get into Uh Maybe seeing uh Occupants of the craft come out maybe You Undergo an abduction experience And all this so you're get you're going Beyond the close encounter of the third Kind scenario And

Uh Dr heineck at a certain point in his Career as an air force consultant it Dawned on him That even though the vast majority of Cases Could be explained in relatively Ordinary terms that there are cases of High strangeness Okay And you know if a ufo lands in your Backyard And the space spacemen come out that is A very strange occurrence okay and so he Developed this this uh protocol of close Encounters the first first kind second Kind third kind And now we've gone beyond that you know Into abductions And and Those scenarios How do you get something I'm just curious where do you in your Work and i know i'm kind of diverting a Little bit from the track run but I've always had an interest in the space Program And there's been a lot of inaudible Stories of transmissions Made by our astronauts you know Describing things that they noted That were not of this world so to speak If you encountered any of that in your Research that can verify or disprove any

Of that stuff i mean all the way up Through the apollo mission when they're On the moon they were talking about Having seen some things and that was Blacked out supposedly and Those type of incidents Well Again it falls into the rumor Uh And stories category and and for years That have there have been rumors that The The astronauts saw alien craft on the Moon and they've seen ufos and In their in their space Activities you know orbiting the earth Or maybe between the earth and the moon Now nasa you know they have they have a Public radio channel and then they have A private radio channel And there are some things that the Astronauts probably have to talk about You don't want to hear That they're having a problem going to The bathroom or they just through they Just spit up their dinner or you know All that kind of thing But the uh If there is in a ufo activity that They're reporting on or discussing it's Going to go through the private channel Okay it's not going to go through the Public channel So

The question is And i don't i don't know if these Recordings if they were recorded or if These recordings even still exist but i Would think In terms of documentary evidence That that would be one place to look Okay the the recordings of Of the private channel conversations That the astronauts have with uh you Know with with houston uh with Headquarters Um now there have been rumors and and i I say there are rumors because we've Never received any official confirmation But that they they airbrush ufos out of You know photographs on the moon Uh and this kind of thing and Uh maybe you know maybe it's true maybe It's not There was a fascinating story told by a Gentleman On another uh ufo podcast And he uh he and an associate of him his They went to houston And they asked to see The lunar photographs of Of formations on the moon artificial Formations on the moon Uh there was a lot of back and forth and They went uh they went through a big run Around but they were finally given Permission To visit this location it was like

On a back road somewhere there was a Building there And they go in and uh you know they're Given access to these photographs And they find these structures on the Moon okay now that's that's a story That's being told I i think he wrote a book and they may Even have some photographs and i don't i Don't have the name of the book with me But that's That's one of the closest Uh things i've ever heard actual maybe Maybe having some confirmation that There's something to them amazing stuff It is and you know one of the things They talked about that some of the test Crashes that they did on the moon and Then seeing this Bell ringing event on their Uh various equipment instrumentation Showing that instead of a dull thud and So forth they get this bell ringing Effect from crashing on the moon which Leads people to believe That the moon has is an artificial thing Uh and it's the coating of You know You know soils of some sort on there but Underneath it it should not be ringing Hollow like a metal Bell or so forth i don't know if you've Heard any of that and um when i get Asked some of those questions of course

Clearly We don't have enough data to answer it But um there's been anecdotal Information about that Yeah i've heard of that but whether the Moon is hollow or artificial that that's Above my pay grade Right right gotcha So let's go to your um you know we're Kind of getting close to wrapping up Here so let's go to your what's your Best ufo story for folks You've got lots of them i know but you Know i'm thinking the best one that People would get a kick out of The ufo Story that i advocate is what's called The The cash landrum Case And that was where uh kraft was Spotted by a couple of ladies and a Young Boy child young male child they were Driving in a car In east texas and this This uh craft Comes pretty close it appears Uh i don't know if it's flaming or it's Glowing but they felt heat Uh and they they've uh they received uh What amounted to Radiation-like burns as a result of the Of the encounter now there are also a

Number of helicopters recorded In in the area now Uh a mufon board member a longtime ufo Researcher John schusser uh lived in the houston Area he was He was an engineer and he was with Mcdonnell douglas and they had all kinds Of contracts with nasa so he was living In clear lake which is the suburb of Houston and he investigated this to the Nth degree he really Really dug into it Really did a deep dive and eventually Just hit a brick wall Okay So Uh another person that i mentioned Richard doty Who uh is formerly with afosi and he now Is out on a lot of internet programs Uh talking about his background and Experience and he claims That the cache land room craft was Actually An alien craft uh developed in the area 51 Part of the world in nevada And that they they couldn't figure out How the alien propulsion system works so They Constructed some kind of nuclear type Propulsion System for the craft and

That he he claims that they flew it For months In this remote location and everything Seemed to be fine And his claim is that the craft was Being transferred to another location Uh perhaps on air force base in texas And that it got into trouble it was in Distress So here we have Uh we have people being subjected to Radiation type burns Very very close to a craft A number of helicopters reported And a former u.s government employee Claiming that it's Its combination of alien us Us manufacturer That's that's what turns me on And that to me i mean that's as far as I'm concerned that's a real case and I've got i've got all the documentation Uh from from uh uh Mr schuesler's investigation Uh there there are two rumors about the Settlement the Uh cash cashes and land rooms they sued The government Because they felt they had been injured By it I've heard one story that the government Just denied their plane outright And and stonewalled them and then i've I've also heard a rumor that there was

There was a backdoor settlement you know They were given some money perhaps if They if they keep quiet about it That's my favorite case It would be a good one i have heard of That one yes in fact i've heard of that One so Tom you got a question No i i think this is fascinating stuff And i think we just scratch on the Surface so we're going to end up before We find out the truth You know i wonder as we're having this Discussion we talk about the governing Involvement over history The recent creation of the space force You know we talk about that is to Protect our satellites from adversaries Here on earth but you wonder if there's Another uh impetus to that creation Well it's unlike anything else there's There's the public side of it that we Hear about and then there's the Non-public side that we don't hear about And you don't know what you know you Don't know what you don't know Uh we just don't know what what they Could be doing behind the scenes because We're never told The Concept of a secret space program Is out there you'll see that Purported on gaia tv and things of that Nature um

And you know there's a few people that Tend to Push that as a reality That there is we've been interacting at A very high technological level For a number of decades Um And using humans in that respect and Particularly some with psychic Abilities to in order to communicate With aliens and whatnot but seems to me If they're sophisticated enough to come Here they're probably sophisticated Enough to have a Translator themselves um It's a mechanical form at the very least But uh as mufon looked at any You know investigation related to the Truth behind a secret space program Well we actually had some of the people Advocating that uh presented one of our Symposiums a couple of years ago and And we've gotten help for it because the People that are advocating that they Have no evidence to Back up their stories no documents No other Corroboration The stories are just wild beyond belief You know that they're trained in Uh You know operating on mars and that Their regret you know they're The time is manipulated so they come

Back to the present time or the Past time and all this and I mean it's anything's possible In this in this field okay because we're We are We're we're addressing things that we Don't understand so i can't say a Hundred percent none of it's true Whether It didn't happen or it couldn't happen It may have but our problem is I i'm kind of an historian And a researcher an investigator and you Guys are you're formerly with police and All that you have to have evidence Okay you have to have support something To support your claims if You know in police work if a woman comes In and claims that she was raped by mr x You're not going to convict the guy Without evidence And i can't go out and say that we have A secret space program when i don't have Any real evidence for it now there there Has been a a conventional Secret space program in that The government has been launching uh Classified satellites for years they'll Even come out and say that it's it's a Classified uh satellite payload And there's There are things like that that go on That are secret and classified you know That's that's a real secret space

Program now i i came across an article a Few days ago i i found extremely Intriguing but that the us is setting up Surveillance Uh a surveillance capability for between Here and the moon Okay Now it's one thing to be you know you Have satellites orbitings russian Satellites and chinese satellites and All this But some of these other countries are Trying to go to the moon now and and the Ostensible reason Is that they're you know they're Surveilling any traffic between the Earth and the moon Because of that but that to me is is Suspicious okay It's kind of got to pass the smell test As we call it and But if something walks like a duck talks Like a duck you know quacks like a duck It's probably a duck so we have to you Know kind of take those things into Consideration when we're doing Investigations as well but data Evidence Critical uh to make an individual that's Not hard to hide or just withhold If you're in charge of it you Let anybody know and get stuff outside Of foia And it's

Much easier To conceal uh and sometimes You know it's challenging but sometimes We're our own worst enemy the more we Know the Less safe we are as a as a people uh you Know because Everybody wants to talk about the Secrets and Sometimes i could say from the other Side you know government side Some things Is not best out in the public because it Would disrupt issues i get that i get The concept um But that requires a whole lot of trust For those people who are holding those Secrets and there are really good people In the government especially You know and some of the three-lettered Agencies and military Some exceptionally good patriots But There are those that are always in every Formal Problem with this national security State in place that we have now one Scholar pointed out that a a relatively High percentage Of our history is classified I don't know what the What his Estimation was but a pretty large Fraction

Of our documentation of our history he's Classified we don't even know what our History is really as united states Citizen And that to me is very worrisome It is it is Hey tom if people want to get a hold of You what is your contact information or You said you have a blog What is that so we can get that up on The screen Yeah uh It's tom whitmore blog that's all one Word That's tom Uh my uh i'm on facebook as tom whitmore And i'm on twitter as at tom tulsa That's at tom tulsa Gotcha fantastic and what would they Hope to find i know you've done a number Of research papers Is that on your blog as well or is there Another word for that yes i have four uh Papers on my blog uh the first one is mj 12 the counter intelligence angle Uh the second one is Before mj 12 And the third one is mj 12 psychological Warfare and strategic deception And the fourth one is mj 12 afosi and my The and the one that i'm currently Working on that i hope to post uh Probably next month Is uh mjh 12

Uh put into the historical context of of Forgeries and fabrications and i've gone Even back to eight ancient times and and Up to the present of all of the Forgeries and fabrications not all of Them but many of the forgeries and Fabrications that have occurred Now for um As we're closing in here but As Uh i say a newbie wants to get in this What two books would you recommend they Read to kind of really get them up to Speed On the ufo concepts and so forth is There something you would recommend Stanton friedman Wrote a book and uh it's called magic And It's a it's a book that you can get on Amazon Uh that's spelled m-a-j-i-c Right and he Uh Is very was very pro-mj-12 unfortunately We've lost him he's deceased now and I've sat you know eyeball eyeball with Him and discuss some of these things He's very pro amj12 but he at the same Time he describes some very Detailed research that he did Uh on mj12 i i and he's a very very Intelligent man very very Uh very sharp

Another thing a person can do you can Actually look at the documents another Pro mj 12 place is Mj12 I'm sorry majestic And that's a website That has been created by ryan wood who Is the son of robert wood who actually Is a dear friend of mine but they uh They came into possession of The timothy cooper documents So uh they they've posted these on their Website you can get a lot Of information there Fantastic Tommy you got anything let's close out Yeah tom i just want to say thank you For what you're doing and being with us Today and sharing this with our audience I know this has become a pretty hot Topic in recent years throughout you Know the media and such and It's really great to have someone that Has the credibility to speak to it not Just sensationalize it so really Appreciate your efforts And thank you thank you all for having Me it's an honor to be with you today Well we really appreciate it and for all Those who have seen a ufo keep your Hopes up get the documentation uh i'm Sure uh tom would love to uh get you in

The muffin files and hopefully we can Help Prove this one way or another so Uh from those of us here at the Metaphysical mysteries we thank you for Joining us today and we will be back With another exciting guest in the near Future so stay tuned and thanks a lot Make sure to hit that subscribe button Help us out on that Thank you